Dept. of LJ

Monday, 3 April 2017 06:06 pm
kaffyr: Calvin face palms (Calvin face palm)
[personal profile] kaffyr
Any Thoughts on the New Live Journal User Agreement?

Right now it looks as if I can't sign in unless I click "agree" - or more accurately, as if I'll be signed out if I don't click "agree." And from what little I can make out of the new agreement, it's looking less and less like I actually would want to click "agree." Still, perhaps it's not as dire as it seems? I'd love to be pointed to anyone's review of the new agreement (which, per the notice, doesn't appear to be binding in English. When you're redirected to what is referred to as the binding agreement, you discover it's in Russian Cyrillic.) Does anyone have more information that I can view while signed out? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

ETA: AAAAAnd I can't crosspost unless I click "agree." So there's that.

ETA 2: I signed the agreement so that I could fully access my own account. However I will probably post an announcement letting people know that as of a date certain (possibly April 30), I'll be importing everything from LJ and deleting that account. If folks want to stay in touch, I'll provide an email account, and I'll also urge folks to sign up for, at the very least, a free Dreamwidth account. Any comments I may have made on other peoples' LJ, any deathless prose that the world might lose forever when I disappear ... will, well, be lost 

ETA 3: Reasons for my proposed plan of action? 

For one thing, the English translation isn't trustworthy, by TPTB's own admission; they state that the only "valid" agreement is one that's in Cyrillic Russion. For another, it appears to contradict itself on whether the new Russian Federation laws apply only to people with free accounts or to people with paid accounts (now rechristened Professional Services Packages). 

For yet another, it doesn't make clear the difference between the entity that owns the entire blogging platform, which is now under Russian Federation law, and the entity that supposedly will handle paid users accounts, still referred to as Live Journal Inc. I suspect there's really no difference. 

And another problem? If you read through the non-official English version of the user agreement one thing becomes clear: they state they can censor anyone's journal for political activity or for things that the Russian Federation considers 18+/stuff. Such as anything that mentions the very existence of gay people as, you know, people. 

I know a number of people have pointed out that those laws will probably only be applied to Russian bloggers. A) Just because I'm not affected doesn't make it any more palatable to me, and I'm not interested in even passively supporting the censorship of other people. B) "probably" is a weasel word in these circumstances. 

I think this is the last straw for me. It's a shame, but not a tremendous one. I've been slowly moving over to Dreamwidth anyhow. 

Date: Monday, 3 April 2017 11:18 pm (UTC)
kerkevik_2014: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kerkevik_2014
Just posted this myself http://kerkevik-2014.dreamwidth.org/99136.html

kerk
Edited Date: Monday, 3 April 2017 11:18 pm (UTC)

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 02:29 am (UTC)
lsanderson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lsanderson
James Nicoll has a post: http://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/8789698.html#comments

He asks the same question.

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 02:48 am (UTC)
muccamukk: Steve standing with his arms folded, looking disapproving. (Avengers: Judgy Arms)
From: [personal profile] muccamukk
I agreed as I don't post but use the account for comments and comms, etc, but am seriously considering deleting altogether. I just can't see myself supporting a site that folds to awful laws like that.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] muccamukk - Date: Saturday, 8 April 2017 09:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 04:36 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: Batwoman, red/black/white art (Batwoman)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
I have a permanent account but there's only 2 people I follow there now who I can't follow elsewhere. I think I might let them know and then delete.

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 08:53 am (UTC)
kerravonsen: "An inherent cultural passion for things that go boom." (boom)
From: [personal profile] kerravonsen
I have a permanent account too, but I'm unclear as to whether the conditions of permanent accounts will be respected any more, especially in regard to not having advertisements.

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 06:04 am (UTC)
st_aurafina: (Internet is sad)
From: [personal profile] st_aurafina
Ughhhhh, this is a bummer. Not that I even go to LJ much these days, but I still have a few friends over there, and there are all the comms I used to be more active in, and all the memories from those good times. I don't want to delete, but every time they push me a little bit closer.

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 09:06 am (UTC)
shanghaied: (Facetail)
From: [personal profile] shanghaied
LJ?! Blimey, I stopped flogging that dead horse a long time ago. It was a thing of beauty in its heyday, but that's going back almost ten years now :-(

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From: [personal profile] shanghaied - Date: Saturday, 8 April 2017 11:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [personal profile] shanghaied - Date: Sunday, 9 April 2017 03:48 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: Friday, 7 April 2017 06:12 pm (UTC)
robling_t: No, seriously, bollocks (bollocks)
From: [personal profile] robling_t
Yeah, I think this may be the final final straw for me to give it up over there, although I'm still waffling on precisely when and how to bail (deletion vs abandonment? Now? Next week? When the paid time I just bought last month (grr) runs out?)...

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 03:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com
Yeah, the whole 'can't sign in until you agree' left a bad taste in my mouth. It rather pissed me off that a page that I had opened was just under the agreement (where I could see it) and that I PAY to access my account (and have for years) and they felt they could hold what I've paid for hostage until i agreed to their bullshittery. And it was definitely head-tilty and contradictory bullshittery. I super-pissed because this is my Happy Place. My HOME. And while Russia/Russian entities may own the damned thing, I've been paying (as have a few others) to say what I want, when I want, how I want since I've owned an ElJay! The idea of being 'monitored and censored' depending on the whims of another country is irritating and yes, bullshitty. I don't like the idea either of what I pay to further propagate prejudice and a terrible ideology that I do not agree with.

Do as much as I hate it, I will be paying to transfer my icons and things over to DW. I will keep my ElJay, but I will be backing up things at DW regularly - and I will be letting my account lapse here. Just because of this horse-shit. Meh.

Still pissed that my stuff was held hostage so they could try to throw a poorly worded litany of crap at me and force me to say 'yes' to access my own account. And the attempt to blow sunshine up my ass wasn't missed by me. UGH.

*HUGS*

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com - Date: Saturday, 8 April 2017 06:24 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 03:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sallymn.livejournal.com
Not deleting - I have a permanent account plus several thousand icons from posts, along with other reasons - but I might friend you on DW?

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 05:37 am (UTC)
ext_24631: editrix with a martini (Default)
From: [identity profile] editrx.livejournal.com
I'm going to keep my LJ account for now, but crosspost from DW. I'm Editrx there if you would care to follow me. I may even update more often than I have been.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] editrx.livejournal.com - Date: Wednesday, 5 April 2017 04:07 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 07:47 am (UTC)
lost_spook: (s&s - odd)
From: [personal profile] lost_spook
OTOH, what user agreements don't look sketchy when you read them? And it's not actually sinister to want to update one!

Maybe there are questionable things, but I didn't especially notice anything reading through and people seem prone to panic too hastily every time LJ does anything at all lately - and all it does in the end is damage this kind of journalling, as people go to Twitter, tumblr and Facebook, or just go. They already had the right to terminate users' accounts and censor things previously - it's what happened in strikethrough, when LJ was US owned! (I suspect any mainstream blog service provider must have some sort of clause like that, or they wouldn't be able to remove dodgy blogs when alerted to them, or deal with people abusing the service). I mean, I'm not a legal person, so it seemed exactly as scary as every other internet user agreement I've signed, which is to say, baffling and alarming! All of them! But even if it's a reason to leave surely not to delete everything you'd previously posted? If they wanted to do evil with it, it's presumably already done.
Edited Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 07:48 am (UTC)

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Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 10:21 am (UTC)
matrixmann: (Waiting for command)
From: [personal profile] matrixmann
Waited to see somebody say something about this...

Well, on one hand it came out of the blue, but on another hand, when servers move to Russia, it's a self-evidence that soon there'll also be an adaption in user agreements due to this.
Concern goes with me at about the 18+ topics too. LGBT is one thing (only a minor topic), but more it becomes a concern for me how do topics about violence get treated in Russia? I've got a lot of dealing with that stuff besides all the political texts. And I've already got to be careful enough because of German authorities and lurkers which wait to find a possible future terrorist only by his blogposts and the topics he's interested in. That's already not too easy; and I personally don't have the many problems that those people make out of them talking about that stuff or integrating violence as a part of life that just exists.
Russian part of the internet also does a lot of things which are criminal by their own laws too and nobody cares, but how's that kept over here? Throughout the years never had any problems with it, but it's not final that this can't change...
So, yeah, a few question marks and insecurities for what this practically means to one. Also, what does it mean exactly for all those which aren't residents of the Russian Federation? Juridically one knows what your own authorities would do, but a platform also doesn't want to lose users, so what about "gifts out of customer-friendliness" - are there some or not?
It would be good knowing anything officially so that one knows what he can rely on.

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From: [personal profile] matrixmann - Date: Friday, 7 April 2017 11:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 02:29 pm (UTC)
liadtbunny: (Whitechapel Ending Question)
From: [personal profile] liadtbunny
I'm staying on LJ and seeing what happens to my Whitechapel comms (backed up on lj) which have a lot of slash content.

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From: [personal profile] liadtbunny - Date: Wednesday, 5 April 2017 03:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: Tuesday, 4 April 2017 02:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eaweek.livejournal.com
I guess it's time I went over to Dreamwidth and started doing something with my account there. I'll send you a friend request if I can figure out how. Gaah.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eaweek.livejournal.com - Date: Wednesday, 5 April 2017 04:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: Wednesday, 5 April 2017 11:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarren.livejournal.com
I've been crossposting from DW for years, but most of my flist are still either just on LJ or active on it, and I (like them, no doubt) have been apathetic about moving. Will pay more attention to friending people over there now - have just done you :)

Date: Friday, 7 April 2017 03:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] strannik01.livejournal.com
It hasn't really occurred to me to check your LJ until this morning's kerfuffle. While the way they sort of snuck the change in alarmed me, I didn't realize it would be such a big deal in the English-speaking LJ, since, going by a quick glance through the new TOS, it wasn't anything that Russian LJ users didn't, in theory, have to face already.

(I say "in theory," because enforcement of the law has never been consistent)

That and I didn't think that you would care all that much, since your posts are cross-posted from Dreamwidth anyway.

I will probably put together a longer post on my LJ tomorrow (too tired tonight - been working all day). But looking at the relevant provision of the agreement in the original Russian, it says that "[The user] is obligated to mark content that's not allowed, under the relevant legislation of the Russian Federation, to be disseminated to children (ages 0-18), using this Service's functions." The "mark" part gives me pause, because it's not actually clear if they mean something like what Russian newspapers and websites (including LJ's corporate sibling Gazera.ru), where they put an "18+" stamp in the bottom of every page, one that's easy to miss if you don't scroll all the way down, or marking the post as mature.

(ETA: Okay, I clearly didn't read that section carefully enough. As I mentioned in the post earlier today, the language is alot more clear than I thought. I guess I was more tired than I thought)

Of course, the real question in this situation isn't so much what the language means, as what do Russian law enforcement would take it to mean if they ever want to pursue people for violations of the new TOS. Which, again, it's hard to say whether they would do it, because the enforcement has never been consistent. My mom's Russian-language LJ hasn't been touched since the "gay propaganda" law came into effect, and she's been pretty vocal in her support for gay rights. And there are other examples of LJs that, technically speaking, violate Russian laws. Some of them are even posted from within Russia.

For me, my attitude is, fuck it, I've been here since 2005, I am not going to leave now. That and there are still comms and Russian LJ users I follow, and LJs I would like to be able to keep commenting on (mostly my mom's). If they ever go after my mom and some others, I might change my tune (and, if all else fails, I do have a Dreamwidth account I barely use, which can be pressed into service, if necessary), but until then... DDoS the land and TOS the sea, you can't take LJ from me, козлы недосраные (that Russian curse was directed towards SUP, not anyone in the comments)
Edited Date: Friday, 7 April 2017 08:49 pm (UTC)

Strannik's Russian Swears Lesson

From: [identity profile] strannik01.livejournal.com - Date: Saturday, 8 April 2017 12:56 am (UTC) - Expand

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